Curse

Willow O Whisper · Sep 28, 2007, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

A Warrior can, easily.

Look at the standard shockaxe - he can pressure just by hitting Frenzy, play disruption with Bull's and Shock, and spike hard.
And a good warrior will be able to do all 3, depending on the situation.

A standard SP sin could not - no matter how great he is as a player, the build he uses restricts his available options. There's not a chance in hell of him disrupting, or pressuring, or having any kind of utility other than one mean spike.

While being blind? i really wan't to see a shock axe take on a anti melee mes.
Btw why do you use sp as an example?

moriz · Sep 28, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

actually, expand "standard SP sin" to "all sin builds", since the same limitation is found on any sin build ever created (with the possible exception of the old AoD shock assassin, but that build has been surpassed in so many ways that it's not worth mentioning anymore).

another reason why sins are generally not favoured in high level gvg is because of the old "window of opportunity" philosophy. essentially, the window of opportunity philosophy dictates that the most effective way to score kills is by creating situations where the other team simply cannot react to you. warriors are the most effect profession as your frontline, because of their excellent damage potential as well as excellent disruption through knockdowns. remember, warriors can KD for 3 seconds because of stonefist insignia. most other professions scan only manage a 2 second KD. the last pride [EvIL] and treacherous empire [Te] were the two guilds that pretty much invented this style of play. they were so good to the point where they could conjure up a window of opportunity at will, and drop a monk to 60DP in a matter of seconds (that is, monk dies, gets rezzed, and immediately dies again and so on). assassins on the otherhand, cannot create this window of opportunity for their team.

remember: average players reacts to the chances given to them, truly skilled players create their own chances. warriors allows the skilled player to do so, while the sin can only hope to react.

--edited by: Tsunami Rain --

and you're still thinking in a RA/AB perspective. in gvg, there's a monk that can get rid of the blind, as well as the mesmer or ranger to disable the blind. teamplay, not individual play.

BlackSephir · Sep 28, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

and you're still thinking in a RA/AB perspective. in gvg, there's a monk that can get rid of the blind, as well as the mesmer or ranger to disable the blind. teamplay, not individual play.

No matter how many times people have said that, he doesn't get it.

I'll use simple words.
We're aren't (and weren't) talking about gvg only. We were talking abou A in Gw, that includes every aspect of the game, even frikkin solo farming, RA and AB.
So before you'll crap like "you're thinking in blahblah perspective" look what you're talking about

Coloneh · Sep 28, 2007, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

lolz. What class CAN do this, then?

any class should be able to change up playstyle on the go. except most sins

Tsunami Rain · Sep 28, 2007, 11:15 PM // 23:15

last warning.

Bobby2 · Sep 29, 2007, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

any class should be able to change up playstyle on the go. except most sins

Right.

And how do you support this statement?

Mekkakat · Sep 29, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

any class should be able to change up playstyle on the go. except most sins

another troll post by Coloneh.

current build i goof off with in AB/RA/TA

golden fox strike
wild strike
shattering assault
impale
siphon speed
sight beyond sight (optional )
way of perfection optional (derv secondary for aura of thorns)
shadows refuge optional swapping

has anti blind, best snare in the game, passive AoE temporary snare, enchant removal, unblockable, stance canceling capabilities, a solid recharge on the chain, a good spike with impale on lower hp targets, and rock solid utility.

tell me in any way in the world how this isn't some of the nastiest pressure/spike tool out there. spread siphon, passive glance Aura/keep off blind with SBS, and stay unblockable nonstop so long as you're not freaking playing alone.

sins have tons of utility, are the only class with hybrid hex/melee (PRESSURE), and are undisputed kings of unblockable melee. pretty pathetic arguments being made here, and to all the trolls and haters out there using 1 or 2 builds to make examples, you should all be ashamed that you even consider yourselves good at the game.

moriz · Sep 29, 2007, 02:28 AM // 02:28

....until you eat a dshot to your golden fox strike. or any skill of your rather weak 3-skill combo. oh noez, what are you going to do now, spam siphon speed for the next 25 seconds? wow, so very useful, especially since your siphon isn't a very high spec and can be entirely countered by switching on a run buff. the fact is, all assassin builds are this easy to shut down. it's just fortunate that none of you have ever met a person who can do it.

no matter what you run, the sin will always be a one trick pony. you can fiddle around with your combo all you like, but it's not going to change that. we use 1 - 2 builds to make examples because we already know that all assassins are essentially the same (just different skills in the same old combo structure), and use those 1 to 2 builds for simplicity's sake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobby2

Right.

And how do you support this statement?

rereading our posts would help. go back and read them. we've made plenty of examples to support our statements.

LightningHell · Sep 29, 2007, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laenavesse

And hence why it's in quotes! ^_^ It still does wonderful damage though :3 And that's all that I want from it.

And okay, that gives me a clearer picture of a spike, but still not the skill part. Still, a monk who sees the Hex (or even a sin) should be able to place at least one or two prot skills before they are ganked and thus reduce the damage. But I do see how the SP sin is a spike.

And now I have to point out your argument that there are no "other builds builds in the PvP scenario that are more effective than the SP sin." I'd have to say a no to that one. It's not the only build you can run. Anything that can incapacitate your target will do it. Shroud of Silence and any of the daze skills, for example, followed by any of the KD skills can cripple a caster. Shroud can be countered by holy veil if used on monk or general hex removal, but the KD would help delay that (unless from a monk, but that should be dead first anyway).

The SP sin deals lots of damage, no doubt about it. It gives a giant snare AND shadow steps you to the target, which is what allows for the damage to begin with. If you have KD in the line then it's even better.

But what moriz was saying was that it's basically the ONLY build a sin can use and that is not true. If you want the known instant kill, then maybe it is. But if you know that there are other ways to incapacitate a target (so you can't get all of the professions, then just work on the squishies which is what should be happening anyway) then work on it to deal as much damage as well.

The reason why some builds (i.e. the two examples that were used in this thread, the Shock Axe and the SP sin) are considered and the others are not considered would be because of one's efficiency compared to another. For example, a Shroud of Silence build would be nice for kicks, and it might (probably would) get kills in disorganized environments, i.e. RA and AB (it might even not work in PvE, where stuff actually do hit pretty hard), but it just gets outclassed by better, more efficient builds in organized play. However, the reverse is not true; stuff in organized play usually work wonders in disorganized environments.

And since this thread is talking about the sin in all levels of play, we use the top-tier builds, because they are applicable to all tiers of play.

On another note, you don't need to always kill the monk first.

Mekkakat · Sep 29, 2007, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

The reason why some builds (i.e. the two examples that were used in this thread, the Shock Axe and the SP sin) are considered and the others are not considered would be because of one's efficiency compared to another. For example, a Shroud of Silence build would be nice for kicks, and it might (probably would) get kills in disorganized environments, i.e. RA and AB (it might even not work in PvE, where stuff actually do hit pretty hard), but it just gets outclassed by better, more efficient builds in organized play. However, the reverse is not true; stuff in organized play usually work wonders in disorganized environments.

And since this thread is talking about the sin in all levels of play, we use the top-tier builds, because they are applicable to all tiers of play.

On another note, you don't need to always kill the monk first.

there are plenty of other high-tier builds that sins use. not to mention, if you're talking about "organized" play, that would mean each player has a specific role in the team, thus, a sin having a build designated to fit that team build, would be optimal for the team.

LightningHell · Sep 29, 2007, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

there are plenty of other high-tier builds that sins use. not to mention, if you're talking about "organized" play, that would mean each player has a specific role in the team, thus, a sin having a build designated to fit that team build, would be optimal for the team.

While every player has a general role in the team, it is usually also better that every player is flexible enough to cover for any unforseen circumstances, as well. Apart from benefiting from being able to adapt to sudden crises, it also means that the player can more easily exploit situations.

Also, please suggest other high-tier builds that are used.

moriz · Sep 29, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

and all of those builds (including the ones found in lower levels) are equality inflexible. the fact is, any sin build allows for very little variance in how they're run. if you don't believe me, try running your attack chain backwards and tell me about your results. then, roll up a shock axe and hit its attack skills backwards (as in, executioner's --> eviscerate) and tell me about your results. one of them will do nothing, the other will still hit pretty damn hard.

the argument still essentially boils down to one fact: a sin build can only serve one role on a team, while a good warrior build can serve several different roles. i think i'd rather choose the warrior, unless i know beforehand that the sin can absolutely destroy my opponents because of what they'll be using.

as for your build mekkakat, i'm gonna be blunt about it: it sucks. it doesn't spike well, it doesn't pressure well. outside of a few trivial snares, it doesn't contribute a whole lot to the team (especially since you'll need to be at half radar range or closer to use them). sure it works in AB and RA/TA, but outside of those arenas, it's quite useless.

but hey, the challenge is still on. come up with a truly versatile assassin build, that which is on the same level as the shock axe, then you'll win this argument. until then... good luck.

Mekkakat · Sep 29, 2007, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

and all of those builds (including the ones found in lower levels) are equality inflexible. the fact is, any sin build allows for very little variance in how they're run. if you don't believe me, try running your attack chain backwards and tell me about your results. then, roll up a shock axe and hit its attack skills backwards (as in, executioner's --> eviscerate) and tell me about your results. one of them will do nothing, the other will still hit pretty damn hard.

the argument still essentially boils down to one fact: a sin build can only serve one role on a team, while a good warrior build can serve several different roles. i think i'd rather choose the warrior, unless i know beforehand that the sin can absolutely destroy my opponents because of what they'll be using.

as for your build mekkakat, i'm gonna be blunt about it: it sucks. it doesn't spike well, it doesn't pressure well. outside of a few trivial snares, it doesn't contribute a whole lot to the team (especially since you'll need to be at half radar range or closer to use them). sure it works in AB and RA/TA, but outside of those arenas, it's quite useless.

but hey, the challenge is still on. come up with a truly versatile assassin build, that which is on the same level as the shock axe, then you'll win this argument. until then... good luck.

i've only scored at least 30 glad points with it before the update, and have held halls with one of them on my team. unblockable enchant removal not good? please tell me you're kidding.

im done with this thread, if you can't understand, you never will. high dps/unblockable/armor ignoring skills are balanced by making them conditional in every game. Rogues in WoW, sins in GWs, sins/rogues in EQ, you name it. if it can kill you in less than 3 seconds, it has to have balance. good for you, you pointed out the obvious. yes, warriors can run their spike backwards with ok efficiency, but a shock axe has what utility?? do you even know what utility is? shock is a passive disrupting tool that most warriors can't even time right outside of a 3 second cast. it will slow a target down for a bit, but thats it. you use shock axe wars like they're the multipurpose team tool, when they have ONE task, kill the target with Evis, Ag, Ex. bulls strike to snare, frenzy IAS, rush speed boost/cancel, and shock for KD/int. where's the team utility? the multiple use skills? none. shock is your best skill. the end. (btw, warrior's my main class, and i run shock axe in GvG almost always. i KNOW how good it is). you call a sin and everything they do "gimmicky", and "non-versatile", but what you're really doing is saying, "we don't like sins because the gameplay doesn't allow us to be creative with when we use our skills". sorry, thats what noobs complain about, and frankly, no one cares. SP sins, any double black sin for that matter are great, but the meta is designed to shut them down, so play something else and stop using wiki so much, and make your own builds. try shroud, try Deadly Arts games, try something different, or wait, try playing sin well for once. also, not every sin build is designed to kill a target in 2 seconds like an SP/double black sin, some use whats called utility and active pressure.

i bet you call every build holding halls gimmicks, and anything thats not running balance in GvG a gimmick too.

Bobby2 · Sep 29, 2007, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

rereading our posts would help. go back and read them. we've made plenty of examples to support our statements.

Oh, I have been. And you yourself brought arguments to the table (though I may not agree with them). This was directed at Coloneh, who I have not seen supporting any of his statements.

And to be frank, saying a class is bad "because it can be interrupted" is just stupid. eg yer average W/x is equally worthless when Blinded. Oh Noez! Let's all bash Warriors now!

Shuuda · Sep 29, 2007, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

another troll post by Coloneh.

current build i goof off with in AB/RA/TA

golden fox strike
wild strike
shattering assault
impale
siphon speed
sight beyond sight (optional )
way of perfection optional (derv secondary for aura of thorns)
shadows refuge optional swapping

has anti blind, best snare in the game, passive AoE temporary snare, enchant removal, unblockable, stance canceling capabilities, a solid recharge on the chain, a good spike with impale on lower hp targets, and rock solid utility.

Just to let you know, Assassin's remedy removes the condition before you hit, blind is removed, hence it is better for an assassin than sight beyond sight. (Last time I checked atleast.)

LightningHell · Sep 29, 2007, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Oh, I have been. And you yourself brought arguments to the table (though I may not agree with them). This was directed at Coloneh, who I have not seen supporting any of his statements.

And to be frank, saying a class is bad "because it can be interrupted" is just stupid. eg yer average W/x is equally worthless when Blinded. Oh Noez! Let's all bash Warriors now!

His point is, once an Assassin is denied his only ability to affect the battlefield, he is essentially dead weight; he cannot do anything else other than whatever it is designed for, be it spike or pressure.

Tsunami Rain · Sep 29, 2007, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Constructive discussion here, please. No trolling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsunami Rain

last warning.

^do these posts mean nothing to you guys?

I'm sure you folks can communicate your messages without flaming each other. Disagreeing is fine but you don't have to bash each other. Fueling the flames is just as bad.

Usually I would say that I would close this thread but there is a lot to discuss here so we will take action on individuals that violate rules instead.

This is the FINAL warning for this thread.

-Tsu

LaserLight · Oct 01, 2007, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Alright...gone for a few days and this thread went to hell. Well, slid further down, anyways. As both an avid Assassin player and someone who enjoys tactical, thought-out gameplay, let me see if I can fairly sum up the problems here.

Pro-Warrior:
Warrior skills, especially the mentioned Shock Axe, perform at full effectiveness regardless of the other skills on the Warrior's bar. This allows the Warrior to use small portions of its build in different ways, letting it switch tactics on the fly to adjust to changing battle conditions. This is good, given that battle conditions can change drastically and with lightning speed in any given fight. The Warrior's natural AL provides it an excellent defense and allows it to venture further into enemy lines and do more jobs than most any Assassin can. It's a versatile, well-balanced class in which any competently designed build therein can change up jobs regularly.

Pro-Assassin:
Let's face it. Assassins hit harder than any Warrior ever created. Warrior spikes, in the terms of a killing spike delivered by Warriors alone, typically refers to a dual Warrior spike, whereas an Assassin that cannot kill its target solo is typically considered inefficient and largely pointless, if it's designed as a killing Assassin. Despite the multitudes of Assassin-bashing in this thread, an Assassin can also spec itself for disruption or pressure roles by switching out which attack sequence it uses. However, the nature of an Assassin's attack sequence essentially transforms the three, four, sometimes five skills devoted to it into a single massive skill which requires a precise ordering to work. if it does, fantastic, but if it breaks, than your huge skill is effectively interrupted. And because it eats so much of your bar, it's hard for Assassins to take a secondary offense or other utility.

An Assassin can design a skill combo that can do a lot of things, but what Moretz is getting at is that the Assassin can't break its combo down into the component skills and use them selectively as can a Warrior. Most of us consider an Assassin with a properly designed skill stream a versatile and effective fighter, but some of us, obviously, do not. And I can see their points. As much as I hate to admit it, an Assassin is not as versatile as a Warrior. Do I agree that the Assassin, as a class, requires no real skill to use and has no utility in anything but casual game formats? Of course not. I am still of the opinion that anyone who automatically says "Screw the sin, it can't do squat, let's take a Shock Axe" is cutting off a limb from his battle plan. However, the Assassin in GvG play should be taken as a support choice rather than a frontline fighter or other primary character. In that role, I believe the class could shine.

And before I get yelled at, I did some Observer-moding today to check just this point, and was very disappointed by what I saw. Not only where virtually all the teams I observed using the same general build - two Shock Axes, two/three Monks, E/Mo runner and some sort of mesmer/second El - they were all playing in the same dang Hall for Chrissakes. No real tactical variance whatsoever, the only Guilds I saw running anything different were low-ranked Guilds who didn't have the skill to figure out how to use what they had against the top 100 guys. This depresses me greatly.

Especially since Deadly Arts has some of the single most intensely damaging skills I've ever seen. Impale alone, at 16 Deadly Arts, deals over 100 damage and inflicts a Deep Wound, in a quarter of a second. Even Eviscerate has to work to get that sort of hit in, and no Eviscerate or Wearying Strike launched can hit in a quarter of a second. There are three Signets in the Deadly Arts line that can deal 90+ damage at 16 spec. Vampiric Assault, at 16, deals over 80 damage in life-steal damage. All of it may be conditional, combo-related damage, but Deadly Arts has more single-target firepower than most any other single skill line in existence. Iron Palm deals more damage than Shock and has an easily-achieved knockdown as well. Or, go the easy route and use a Black off-hand to launch straight into Vampiric Assault, then onto your real damage. It may not be a spike in the strictest sense of the term, but it's just as much damage as a Shadow Prison without having to get into nothing but weapon attack lines. Even Shadow Arts has its powerful skills, with Beguiling Haze chief among them.

personally, I find it kinda miserable that top-level GvG is relying entirely on builds over a year old, without any innovation or new things. Not even neglecting the Assassin, but basically just Holy Trinity builds - Warriors, Monks, various types of Elementalists. In top competition on down stagnation is starting to seriously suck. Can't we put aside the "Assassins suck! No, Warriors suck!" talk and just get back to the Guild Wars where people do new and different things every day?

I've typed too long, while too tired, and am not even sure what I wrote anymore. I'm going to shut up now and let people hurt me while I go drink some caffeine and monkey with my Deadly Arts builds...

Before ye get too vicious though, remember! I've got Ancient Armor. I can kill you just by shaking your hand

LightningHell · Oct 01, 2007, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

/snip

i hav teh godly mod powerz ancient armar iz for nubz lol

To the actual post...

Quote:

As much as I hate to admit it, an Assassin is not as versatile as a Warrior. Do I agree that the Assassin, as a class, requires no real skill to use and has no utility in anything but casual game formats? Of course not. I am still of the opinion that anyone who automatically says "Screw the sin, it can't do squat, let's take a Shock Axe" is cutting off a limb from his battle plan. However, the Assassin in GvG play should be taken as a support choice rather than a frontline fighter or other primary character. In that role, I believe the class could shine.

The Assassin is taken in a team when the team needs a specific function done, while the Warrior is taken as a more general-purpose character.

As the Assassin requires basic gaming knowledge (specific to the game), positional awareness, tactical awareness, et cetera, one cannot say by definition that they're "skillless". However, they're often said to be so because while other classes all need such basic gaming skills, they also need other, more specialized skills; an Assassin can function with a player with general understanding of the game, while a Warrior, for instance, would not be used properly, or to its fullest potential.

You also mentioned not being able to break up the skills to use them selectively; I think the more important point to be made is that the Assassin simply cannot react to changes and exploit opportunities as a Warrior can.

Quote:

Impale alone, at 16 Deadly Arts, deals over 100 damage and inflicts a Deep Wound, in a quarter of a second.

And you need how much effort to get that Impale in...?

This would be why people are calling the 'Sin inflexible.

However, this is all in a PvP context. Likely, in PvE, where rules are lax and it's not cutthroat, and where basic gaming knowledge is scarce, the Warrior would be an easier class to play, yes. It's spamfest there, anyway.

moriz · Oct 01, 2007, 10:49 PM // 22:49

i don't particularly think that using 1-year-old builds are necessarily boring. if that particular build still works and still works better than the alternatives, i'll use it. i also believe innovation is great, and that creativity is one of the driving factors of this game. what i really despise is creativity for the sake of creativity. let's face it folks: much of the viable skill/profession combinations of this game have been found. or at least, until the next skill update rolls in (whenever that will be). designing and using a creative, but usually wildly ineffective build generally gets to my nerves. as the old saying goes: there's no need to reinvent the wheel. creativity should come down to the level of the player, instead of the level of the build. i don't care what fancy skill combination you can load into your character. so can i. what i do care is how you use the skills you have, how you react to changing battlefield conditions, how you react to counters against you, and how (or whether) you can defeat that counter by the creative usage of your skills.

if we go back one year, i remember commenting somewhere that the assassin looked like a profession that's been designed around a 12-skill system, instead of the 8-skill system that we've always had. in hindsight, it looked like i had almost realized that the assassin was poorly designed. if we look at the arsenal of assassin skills we have available, we'll see a good number of pure spiking skills as well as some decent utility. however, because of the poor implementation of the combo system, we'll almost never see those utility skills. skills like dancing daggers, augury of death, entangling asp, or any of the deadly arts skills were originally designed and balanced around the concept of them being able to suppliment the assassin and the team. however, since the assassin generally cannot pull out a killing combo without at least devoting 5-6 skill slots to the combo, we never saw those skills used in a utility role. the only way we could make those skills viable was to buff them into the stratosphere, which created the whole deadly arts spammer fiasco we have now, which also turned those utility skills into straight-up spike and pressure skills.

in short, i believe the assassin was designed around a 12-skill system instead of a 8-skill system. as such, the assassin was poorly designed and implemented. this is also the reason why the assassin is generally inflexible.